Our Three-fold Response

(If you haven’t read the Shove Your Three-fold Somewhere Else post, read it here first.)

Today, I learned that someone I’ve never met (or even heard of) had “a serious bone” to pick with me.  Apparently, she thinks that the members of my religion give out verbal lashings about some cockamamie (sp?) rule that originated at some point when a bunch of uninitiated witches half-assedly (is that a word? No? Well, I’m coining it.) attempted to culturally appropriate something from my cult and warped it into some nonsense about anything you send out being returned to you three-fold.

Without getting into the lunacy of that logic causing endless spiraling fractals of chain events to run amok through our world and the universe, let’s get back to this witch’s beef with me. She says that when we get called out on precisely what I just described above and how impolite it would be for me to jump down another witch’s throat for daring to practice witchcraft, we hide behind “karma.”

Girl, let me tell you something you already know about karma, because it will sound almost as condescendingly pedantic as most of your poorly researched rantings: karma is not a part of Wicca.  Karma has never been a part of Wicca. Karma belongs to Hinduism. While we mostly love Hinduism, being the good pagans that we are, most of us aren’t Hindu. The vast majority, even. Karma implies that Samsara exists.  Samsara implies that we are trapped in a seemingly endless cycle of reincarnation that we are attempting to free ourselves from by pursuing Samadhi, and let me tell you, as fucking fabulous and high on the hog I frequently feel because of how great it is to be one of the Wica, moksha is certainly not on the horizon for me. I love Brahma and all, but I feel no overwhelming desire to reunite my atman with Godhead, because I don’t think it was ever really severed from it.

Witches aren’t trying to escape rebirth; we embrace it. It’s one of our very few tenets. We want to come back again and again and party like rockstars with all of our loved ones as we attempt to be good shepherds of the Earth our dear Gods granted us for that very occasion.  So drop the karma thing already, k?

If you think that part of your purpose here on Earth is to scold people you’ve never met over some bullshit some other people are falsely applying to their religion, then you need to go back to high school and retake whatever classes on critical thinking they offered. You are doing to others what you are protesting having done to yourself. I dunno what your witchcraft has taught you, but mine has shown that to certainly not be the way to break a cycle.

I love your definition of traditional witchcraft. Mostly because it sounds exactly like everyone’s definition of Wicca from the 70s. Let’s see how that changes over the next few decades, shall we? You want to call yourselves pre-Christian? You go right ahead. You want to call yourselves traditional without any semblance of any unbroken line of praxis coming down through the centuries? You go right ahead.  The earliest “Trad Witch” I’ve heard of in my extremely limited and uneducated on who holds that title currently was Robert Cochrane. And wasn’t he, gasp, a Wiccan? (This may not be true. Look at us, learning things!)

Your explanation of what you do with your dead and the bumps in the night etc applies to any witch, and is something that we figured out before your first contact was made with each other. Hell, most of your first contact with each other was likely facilitated by us, because we came out of the broom closet first. So yes, please show us how great and smart you are by stating common sense, since everyone likes to accuse us of failing on that front because we’re way easier for the non-magical public to identify. Did I leave a ‘k’ out of that word there? Well shit, there goes that stereotype.

Now, to the Rede. I really like what you wrote here. Doreen may have been the first Wiccan to publicly utter the Rede, but she certainly didn’t invent it. I don’t care if it’s ascribed to Gardner, Dafo, Crowley, King Pausol or or a 4th century Christian saint (thanks, Wikipedia!). It’s good advice, and it prohibits nothing. The fun part is where you bring up cultural appropriation when someone tries to fling the Rede into someone else’s face. That’s not appropriation, yo. That’s proselytization, and das est verboten in Wicca. Cultural appropriation is when I decide that Yemaya is a Goddess of the Ocean and decide that she is a Wiccan goddess, and so I have circle around my toilet bowl (BECAUSE WATER) to venerate her and then design ads featuring cute white girls wearing her accoutrements in an attempt to sell fashion.

You’re also completely disallowing for the inevitable development of syncretization, but let’s not go there just yet, because it’s way more fun to have outsiders finger-pointing over disagreements between Yemaya’s depiction among Yoruban, Cuban and Brazilian cultures. There’s your hot topic right now. Cause Wicca has been culturally appropriated into oblivion, but people are hot as shit about fending off the same inevitable fate from the ATRs.  We Wiccans will be sitting up in the nosebleed section cheering our ATR brethren on to success where there were far too few of us to compete.

The fact that you state, full blanket statement here, that hexes, curses, jinxes, etc are shunned in Wicca pretty much sets you up for failure. That statement right there shows that you are not a Wiccan and do not have a copy of the BoS. I don’t even need to go any further here, but good for you for thinking you know it all girl. That’s a winning attitude. One day I hope I feel that way about ‘trad craft,’ because then I’ll remember to kick myself in the balls and get real.

Allow me to impart unto you the words of a witch named Terry, of Artemesia Botanicals in Salem, MA, who is not (as far as we know) a Traditional Wiccan in the BTW sense but who, as an ex-Cabot , is psychic enough to just flat out intuit something very, very obvious: “I’m not a Christian, honey. The only cheek I turn is this one!” She then slaps her ass. That woman is frequently brilliant, and that’s probably the most Wiccan thing she’s ever said.

So now that we’ve reached the point of terminal verbosity in this morning interlude of ecumenical lambasting, allow me to impart some knowledge about my cult, Wicca, to you, dear outsider. Wiccans can and do curse. We have lots of very, very detailed and specific ones that are nasty as shit and would be super, SUPER fun to share with witches we like. But we can’t because we swore not to.  Wiccans have ways of killing people. Wiccans have ways of killing other Wiccans. Wiccans have ways of causing your crops to blight and your cows to dry and all of the hilariously old school shit you would expect but never really see. Because we also have that fun little fourth part of that oddly named pyramid to adhere to. We keep silent about it. We don’t post altar pics of the nasty shit we do and then put up more pictures in an etsy shop and start selling that shit to the highest bidder.  That shit is between us and our spirits and our Gods.

And then, oh sweet culturally appropriated baby Jebus, you go ahead and admit that the majority of the idiots you are railing against under our name aren’t actually Wiccans! Why the huge diatribe then? And then you ask why we’re treating each other like the Christians! Well, it’s about perpetuating that cycle I mentioned above.  But please know; we love a good fight.  We’re kind of like the Irish in that regard (ps, I don’t care what the other half of us say, Wicca is fucking ridiculously Celtic). We have a shit ton of fun fighting with each other all the time until an outsider becomes an enemy, and then all of us bandy together despite years of feuding and have a very, very good time with our mutual efforts.

I’m not about to put you to the torch for being a protestant and failing to drink good Catholic whisky, so please don’t lend credence to a bunch of awful cultural appropriation of my religion by accepting it as fact, whole hog, railing against it to me and my cult by name, and in the same breath denounce exactly what you are doing. It kind of reeks of the hypocrisy that comes from a simple lack of awareness, and when someone comes at us, we prefer them to do it with something significant.

In love and light (lol),

A Gardnerian

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66 comments

  1. I’m a little bit confused here and feel free to enlighten me…

    am I understanding your 1st paragraph to read that there is no such thing as 3 Fold?

    I became curious over this and did some research in my Wiccan Books, this book I shall keep nameless, but it contains the complete works and writings of Gerald Gardner, and my I quote,

    ” Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil: An it harm none, do what you will.”

    it continues on, and once again may I quote, ” the Wiccan rules are summed up in the phrase: An it harm none, a Wiccan Witch must never use his or her powers in a way which will cause harm to anyone- or even frighten anyone. ”

    ” Another Wiccan rule says: ‘ Never boast, never threaten, never say you would wish ill of anyone. ‘

    the Writings of Gerald Gardner

    ***
    in yet another Wiccan book it is written,

    Rule of Three
    ” Ever mind the Rule of Three
    three times what thou givest returns to thee.
    This lesson well, thou must learn,
    thee only gets what thou dost earn!”
    ***
    so my question, not being Wiccan, is these writings correct and accurate or not?

    jinxx

    1. Hi Jinx! First, we love you already because you gave us a reason to write hijinx. heh. Secondly, Can you please let us know which books you are referencing? Knowing the author may help with the context.

      Please do not confuse the so-called Rule of Three with the Wiccan Rede. The Rede says that if it harms no one, then have at it. The Rule of Three is some seriously bastardized crap that someone mangled and put out there to make it seem like there is divine retribution for influencing others.

      Gerald did a lot of work to make the Craft more publicly palatable. It is more than likely that he said all of those things, but he also said that witches were consummate leg-pullers 😉 And the very important part of what he wrote was never published publicly. So yes, we are perfectly capable of causing harm. In Gerald’s time, we had just come out of the broom closet, and witchcraft didn’t pay for broken windows. By maintaining a meek public persona, we could deflect all of the heinous accusations against us, from everything as outlandish as baby-eating to blame for commonplace bad luck or illness.

    2. Very late reply as I only just found this site.
      Jinxx, the best reference for issues on the rede, outside of oathbound discussions, I’d am article called “Wiccan ethics and the Wiccan Rede” by David Piper – you should be able to Google it.

      To sum it up, however:
      Wiccan rede: “an it harm none, do what ye will”, which is different from saying “do what you will if it harms harm none”.
      The latter is how many neo-Wiccans teach the phrase, but that’s not what was written earlier.

      To quote Piper:
      ‘In other words, the original archaic construction actually says “if it is not going to hurt anyone, it is ok to do” – this is *not* the same as “if it hurts anyone it is *not* ok to do.”‘

      1. Thank You

        Is it acceptable to just take 1/2 the Rede?

        I would like the 2nd half…

        “Do what ye will”

        Couldn’t say if I could honor the 1st half!

        “An it harm none”

        It would take all the fun out of everything

        Enjoy Your Evening

        xoxo

        Have Fun…

  2. so the 3 Fold and the Rule of 3 are 2 different things even though they have the same definition which is, if you harm someone it comes back at you 3X

    so what makes it not the same?

    still confused

    jinxx

    1. Jinx, the Wiccan Rede and the Rule/law of Three are not the same thing.
      Wiccan Rede: An it harm none, do what ye will. that just means that if something hurts no one, go ahead.
      Threefold Law: What you send out comes back to you threefold. This is crap. Not true. Not Wiccan. The end.

      1. Good Morning, early on the East Coast of USA but before I responded I wanted to make a cup of morning bat blood, freshly brewed!

        I’m going to be straight forward with you, I will start with saying, I have Wiccan friends, I have been to Wiccan functions and socials and in ownership of many Wiccan books, and I have never heard any Wiccan say nor have I read in any Wiccan book, your words of, ” have at it.”

        I have taken some Wiccan ways and incorporated them into my Traditional work, I have studied extensively, Botanicals, which lead me to Shamanism, also incorporated, as well as Celtic and Norse and I’m still studying, I believe in a past life I was a librarian or at best a nerd!

        as I have to agree with the initial post that lead to all of this, Wiccans persecute Traditional Witches for their practice of Black Magick.

        and here’s a little secret, a real Witch is not all a White Witch…

        you are the first Wiccan, that I’m aware of, that has ever said and put in writing, ” have at it. ”

        but I do believe you contradicted yourself, you firstly wrote, and May I write it verbatim, that the Wiccan Rede is, ” if it harms no one, than have at it. ”

        then secondly you write, and once again to repeat verbatim and is what I have in my Wiccan books, Wiccan Rede, “An it harm none, do what you will. ”

        I’m just not sure where your getting the, ” have at it” from?

        the Wiccans seem to live by, practice by and die by, this love thy neighbor theory, and that’s fine if that’s your belief but it is not of the Traditionalists.

        I believe it has to do with the love and light theory.

        someone wrote that Gerald Gardner originated out of nudists camps and that is the mentality for the Wiccan practice of skyclad.

        and once again, a Wiccan believer persecute a Traditionalist for practicing in garments.

        in my experience Wiccans do try to shove their way of thinking down ones throat and condemn those who practice differently.

        this may be a part of the reason Traditional Witches thoroughly enjoy a Solitary Practice.

        well, time for that second cup of hot freshly brewed bats blood…with a dash of eye of newt, laced with hair of otter, bubbling away in the cauldron…yum!

        jinxx

        1. “…but I do believe you contradicted yourself, you firstly wrote, and May I write it verbatim, that the Wiccan Rede is, ” if it harms no one, than have at it. ”

          then secondly you write, and once again to repeat verbatim and is what I have in my Wiccan books, Wiccan Rede, “An it harm none, do what you will. ”

          I’m just not sure where your getting the, ” have at it” from?”

          Could you be a little more condescending? I’m afraid weak analogies like this one don’t tell us how you really feel. 🙂

          1. go read the Garderians response to my conversation with them, I did not say that, “have at it” , the Garderians said that, then in their next response to me, it was said differently, by the Garderians, I was merely trying to elevate my confusion, condescending, I was not, just quoting.

        2. Hi Jinxx. You seemed to erroneously conflate the Rede and the Threefold Law in an earlier comment. In my response to that, in an attempt to explain, i wrote each one out, and then gave a plain-speaking description. The “have at it” part was the plain description of what “An it harm none, do what ye will” means. There is nothing in Wicca that prohibits what others would consider to be black magick. The Rede specifically green-lights works that are harmless. It doesn’t prohibit anything. And the Threefold Law is not Wiccan. It’s crap someone made up and lots of people perpetuated because it served a purpose. It’s that simple.

          If I am the first Wiccan that you have heard say this, then there is your sign that you’ve been speaking to people who aren’t really Wiccan. Wiccans are initiated into the cult by other Wiccans. Youc annot self initiate yourself into someone else’s religion. we persecute no one for practicing with clothes on. We think it’s funny, certainly, but still, to each his own. We will absolutely mock people who profess to practice Wicca with clothes on, because that’s just silly unles you’re outdoors and it’s cold.

          1. I think you hit on it, there must be several different Wiccan paths but only 1 true path but yes, perhaps the Wiccans I have talked to and I’ll speak for the others, that they spoke to also have their own version of Wiccan.

            those Wiccans, don’t speak anything like you, that’s why I told you, you were refreshing, the other Wiccans are always preaching.

            so I think I got a good understanding and if you don’t mind I would appreciate the title of a good authentic Wiccan book to read. thanks

            jinxx

            it

            1. Hocuspocus13, I am also a traditional witch (family practice since at least the late 1800s) and I’d like to point out, that I have never felt any persecution from ANY initiated Traditional Wiccan out there. As a matter of fact, I find that they and I agree on a lot of items, INCLUDING shared annoyance at the whole bastardized three fold harm none thing that self made, self appointed, self described *wiccans* do. Many initiated ones are my friends and we relate on many levels. Mr. Gardnerian is right about the ones in the 70s were very much like Traditional witches, and probably in many cases, the only dividing line between them was the fact that one would be initiated in a valid legit Wiccan coven that was either Gardnerian or Alexanderian.

              The ones that do the persecuting, three fold, harm none, karma thumping are those that are NOT initiates, have no clue about the real meanings, what the actual words mean, and have been misguided by authors whom themselves also had no clue and were not initiates. The blind leading the blind. So stop blaming the initiated Traditional Wiccan’s such as Mr. Gardnerian for the bad behavior of others that have zero lineage to actual Wicca, who basically read books, or learned from another non initiate who also has no clue about it, decided to claim that title for themselves. Initiated ones, which is how it was suppose to be, don’t even normally recognize this ilk as Wicca regardless of them taking that title. To an initiate, that’s a title they never earned, nor did the proper initiations for. That would be like having an influx of people labeling themselves Traditional Witch, bastardizing something a Traditional witch taught, then blind leading the blind, causes much obnoxiousness, then you being unfairly targeted and scolded for the behavior of these folks.

              Jinx, Yes, there are tons of people out there, both solitary, and covens claiming the wicca title even though they have absolutely no up line at all to it. Unfortunately, they are pains in the neck to both actual line aged wiccans, and Traditional ones alike; probably even for other types of witches (wiccans and traditional witches aren’t the only type) out there as well.

  3. cause this “I love your definition of traditional witchcraft. Mostly because it sounds exactly like everyone’s definition of Wicca from the 70s. Let’s see how that changes over the next few decades, shall we? You want to call yourselves pre-Christian? You go right ahead. You want to call yourselves traditional without any semblance of any unbroken line of praxis coming down through the centuries? You go right ahead.”

    I love you forever

    1. Thank for the comment! Quick question: are you a Wiccan yourself? Because from the inside, it’s kind of undeniable that there is a very large Celtic influence/presence within Wicca, since it is from the British Isles and all…

      1. I am Wiccan – 3* Gardnerian, first initiated nearly 20 years ago. From my perspective on the inside there are indeed some influences from British mythology and folklore but I wouldn’t call them, or myself, or my practice Celtic. That’s a very loose term that’s never really had much academic traction as far as I can gather and covers a multitude of folks from the Hallstatt of Austria to the La Tene of France and the Galatians of modern Turkey. I prefer to think of the gods, goddesses and stories (the Mabiniogion, Arthur et al) as British rather than Celtic. But that objection was a bit up my own arse and I didn’t want to harp on in response to your blog – which in every other respect I couldn’t agree with more! Well written!!

  4. @gardnerians
    “We will absolutely mock people who profess to practice Wicca with clothes on, because that’s just silly unles you’re outdoors and it’s cold.”

    – Not all covens within BTW practice skyclad All the time for every rite. There are times when some practice robed other than when it is cold out. Though, all will have rites that are skyclad; not all rites are skyclad.

  5. @Gardnerian,
    It is not the case that All BTW covens do their work skyclad only. Many Alexandrian covens while they will work skyclad also have other work that is performed robed regardless of whether it is cold or not.

  6. ***Oops! I didn’t mean to basically post the same thing twice. On a different note. This response to the original 3 fold blog post is golden!

    1. I’d love to! Tell me precisely where he said that and I’ll be happy to read it aloud to anyone who will listen. It would be hilarious if everyone downline from him just overlooked it 😉

      1. “Thou hast obeyed the Law. But mark well, when thou receivest good, so equally art bound to return good threefold.” – High Magic’s Aid.

        That was the closest thing to the “Threefold Law” penned by Gerald Gardner, and it’s an admonition to give three-times better than one gets, not the other way around. And it’s hardly a law; pin that on Monique Wilson and Raymond Buckland.

        1. Hmmm!

          That sounds more like a reasonable expectation. I am very aware that Valiente, Gardner, AND Alexander Sanders were very opinionated on what Wicca should be, and what kinds of conduct should considered. These early authors were very doctrinal and seeming “orthodox” in their opinions on Wicca itself.

          I have several of their books, and their books DO read very doctrinal. The “eclectic” witch believes he/she lives by the Laws of Nature alone. The “Laws of Cause-and-Effect” have a rather limited understanding, and sometimes a rather limited scope when having any relationship to one’s own deeds in magic.

          I am NOT saying it is wrong to adopt some of the tenets of another belief system as part of your own. MY PROBLEM is when it is passed off as “the law” and that all adherents are bound by it. THAT is the downfall of the Abrahamic Religions. It should not also become the downfall of modern Wicca. “If you borrowed it from someone else, fine.” Please be honest in your representation of it in your own belief system, NOT mis-represent it as something else.

          And YES, I am very aware of the strife that is experienced by those who are outside of the “circles” by virtue of their differing beliefs. I have PERSONALLY experienced this from several different Wiccan groups I was formerly a member of! That is why I am a “former-member”, and a lone practitioner. Too many politically-correct “rules” of behavior and demeanor that stretch the boundaries of commonsense.

          BTW:

          It was Aleister Crowleyi himself who began misappropriating the concepts of the “Rule of Three” AND what became the modern “Wiccan Rede”. He borrowed these ideas from lines from a play that originated in Middle Ages Italy. (Unfortunately, I forgot WHO was the original author of those lines from then.) However, it was Crowleyi who modeled them to become, in essence, “governing laws of conduct” in which later, Gerald Gardner, Doreen Valiente, and others incorporated into their written works and “circles”.

          Also,

          Aleister Crowleyi was originally from the Free Masons, Rosicrucians (sic?), and founded the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) – in which their doctrines also became part of the early Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (a common percursor to modern Wicca).

          Good day, folks, and much Peace and Love!

          -Rev. Dragon’s Eye

          1. POI: Crowley did not create the OTO, he took over the leadership of it after he was expelled from the Order of the Golden Dawn (Original) after receiving his Portal from Mathers before the original Order split. Crowley developed the religion of Thelema which was integrated into his A:.A:. and eventually into the OTO.

            Towards the end of his life Crowley did correspond with Gardner and awarded him some titles in the OTO due to the work Gardner had been doing in flushing out the rituals in Gardnerian Craft. Gardner never made use of these warrants. It has been conjectured that Crowley saw Gardner’s Craft as a gateway to Thelema.

            1. ** POI: Crowley did not create the OTO, he took over the leadership of it after he was expelled from the Order of the Golden Dawn (Original) after receiving his Portal from Mathers before the original Order split. **

              Oops! Then I stand corrected on that.

              Nonetheless,

              The doctrines are still very similar. The “Three-Fold Law” as they held it, is not really any natural law. It is more of a doctrine for their followers. Something that I have a hard time convincing folks, is that witchcraft and wicca are two entirely different things. Again, courtesy of the doctrinalists.

  7. Bravo! I am a Gard initiate (LI Line) and I love you’re response to this traditional witch. A lot of “traditional witches” lump us in with the new age, Llewellyn, Silver Ravenwolf, fluffybunny, Christian wicca crowd and we don’t usually speak out, due to our oaths. Your reply was well written. Keep up the good blog, Gwydion

    1. Well!

      “Wicca” IS predominantly a “New Age” invention (officially recognized in the UK in 1951 with the repeal of the Witchcraft Act) with many of the trappings from several different ancient customs. – What’s so wrong with THAT?

        1. Year later reply here to show that taking all the time you want is perfectly ok 🙂 Also, this discussion *is* actually important to us, which is why we posted it. People need to hear the truth, repeatedly, because America is full of disinformation, and we export that shit faster than cocaine from Colombia.

          I love and light (lol)
          -Gardnerian A

  8. There are many types of faith, and even more paths to follow. I don’t tell you how to follow your path, please don’t tell me how to follow mine. Offer me your arm if I stumble, by all means, but don’t be insulted if i don’t take it, and if I do, don’t take it as permission to lecture me on being ‘wrong’.

    Having read a number of articles around this, all I can say is it sounds exactly like Judeo-Christian religions infighting.

  9. Actually, yeah most Wiccans do run around, granted it is in the Internet. and act like every witch ever should follow their 3 fold law and the Rede is for everyone.

    I know this because I have been on the receiving end. There is a mentality that Wiccans have that they are the end all be all. Most Wiccans do not even know the origins of their religion/craft.

    The rest of us would prefer to not be lectured like children when we do our thing.

  10. It is a shame that there aren’t more “real” Wiccans out there who could bitch slap the “fakers” around.

    Because she – just like most non-Wiccan witches and pagans – only know of your faith through the fakers. And all they spout is fluffybunny crap about the rule of three, karma (and yes, they sure as heck use that word) and how they’re such good ‘white’ witches. They have smeared your name to the rest of us.

    They’ve been speaking on your behalf so long that your name has lost almost all meaning to the greater pagan community.

    So getting mad at her seems inaccurate. She’s not mad at YOU – she’s mad at every faker that has called her out in your name. And how is she to know the difference? Never ONCE have I seen a Wicca came out and tell a fake how wrong they are! Not before today!

    I get that you have trade secrets, and you’re sure as heck not going to talk about them. But it would be nice if posts like this one came out a little more often and decried the bullshit from the fakers who use your name. Because not a day goes by that I don’t have a Fake-Wiccan blaring on about how “curses are evil, and don’t you know the rede!?!” in any one of the groups I’m in.

    TLDR: Please direct your anger at the idiots who use your name to slap around other pagans and make you look bad. And please speak up more so we can point out YOU as the REAL AUTHORITY on the matter.

    1. While we would happily drop a clue-by-four on every fluffy neo-Wiccan in existence, it’s kind of hard to get through to all of them because they’re so rabid about their invented dogma and when you get large audiences of them, opinion becomes the same as fact, which we happily blame on dear, dear AMURICAH! But in reality, we’re not alone, and we’re not hard to find. Most of them just never seek, being content to create their own fantasy and choose their own adventure. We work in covens, they work online. The truth is there for those who have the eyes to see it, and in the meantime, we’ll be happily saucy about it when we’re bored. Thanks for reading!

  11. As an ex-Wiccan High Priestess (because be damned to the restraints) I have never known that there was THE Book of Shadows. This comes as a complete and utter shock to me! (sarcasm, calm yourselves). It is advised that each Witch has their own and often will have rites, rituals, spells, etc they have learned from a mentor or coven leader, many things they’ve gathered from other books or, dare i say it, the internet, other wiccans, witches, and are often advised to write their own as magick is more powerful when you make it personal.

    I also know that no Wiccan tradition I have ever studied abides by “black” magick, hexes, curses, etc and many even frown upon blood magick. Doing so can and often gets you kicked and marked. In a flourishing and highly connected Pagan Community word gets around fast, your Coven will kick you out, and you will then be no longer seen as a Wiccan but simply, yes, a Witch. (Not talking about the issue of Warlocks the Oathbreakers here, k?) Sure we study the spells and ways, we might even have them in our personal B.o.S. because to defend oneself one must know what one is up against. Additionally to call Wicca a “cult” as you did is very degrading, it is a religion and Wiccan’s worked so hard to become a legally recognized religion.

    As far as your reference to the “Trad Witch” dating back to Salem, try going further and picking up a copy of the book of the writings of Italian Witch Maddelena titled “Aradia, Gospel of the Witches” which was transcribed in 1899 by Charles G. Leland. Now, before you start with the “but his work has been scrutinized!” well, so has Gardner’s claim of being initiated into the Sacred Grove Coven and whether or not it even existed at all.

    So please, get your facts about your RELIGION correct first before you attempt an intellectual counter to someone else’s article.

    1. A few quick points:
      1. The coven that Gerald Gardner was intiated into is called the New Forest coven, and it consisted of the members of a Rosicrucian theater locaed at the Crotona Fellowship. We have no idea what “the Sacred Grove Coven” is or was, but it sounds…sacred.
      2. There is one Book of Shadows, written by Gerald, which exists in several different versions that are all practically identical except for a few variations that don’t change anything major. Gardner passed this book to his initiates, who passed it to theirs, and we are still passing it today. You wouldn’t know that unless you were initiated into the Wica, and by your comment, we can tell that you weren’t. But thanks for playing! Naturally, we can add whatever we want to our own copy, but the core is present and passed in all of them because it contains the traditional Wiccan liturgy.
      3. Clearly, you have never studied any traditional Wiccan practice, like Gardnerian, Alexandrian, or the rest of the British Traditional Wica family tree. The things that you are attempting to imply are outlawed are actually quite present, though no one wants to be doing anything really gnarly very often (or at all if it can be avoided). It’s certainly not out-lawed though. Sometimes it is necessary.
      4. Being kicked out of a Wiccan coven does not take away one’s Wiccan status. Once you are made a Wiccan, you remain that way until you die. Initiations cannot be undone. We can certainly shun you though, usually if you go stark rving mad and break your oaths, or become too much of an opinionated bitch on the internet, like in your beautiful example above 😀
      5. Gerald Gardner, who brought Wicca out of the broom closet, frequently referred to the religion that the Wica practice as “the cult” or “the cult of witchcraft.” He uses is 105 times to refer to our religion in his work “Witchcraft Today”, which you can read here. really, we suggest you educate yourself on such things before attempting to pontificate on the internet. You’re playing with the real deal here out in the open. Try not to bury yourself, dear.
      6. The trad-witch we mentioned was Robert Cochrane. He lived in the UK, not Salem. Where did you get Salem from? Are you sure you’re responding to the right blog post? We’re all about day-drinking, but we’re also about re-reading before posting when we’re brunch drunk. We highly recommend it to you as well. Cheers.
      7. We love Aradia. Great book. We’re holding our copy of it right now. None of those witches can be identified, and purposefully so. In fact, he writes precisely that. I’m sure they exist, but again, if you read what we wrote, we said the earliest one we know of (meaning that we have verifiable proof of), was Cochrane. The witches Leland interviewed likely identified as Catholics. We love stregas, and we love their lasagna even more. While they’re probably real live people, they are not presented in a way that proves ancient family traditions of witchcraft in Leland’s book.

      We love this comment because it has so MANY inaccuracies in it while also trying to come off as authoritative on top of those inaccuracies. You are exactly what a Wiccan shouldn’t be and we thank you for being such a shining example for everyone. Blessed be. 🙂

    2. Rowan Morrigan, since you say you are an “As an ex-Wiccan High Priestess” high priestess, I think Mr. Gardnerian would be right in asking you exactly what your Upline is, which you would have no problem detailing if you were initiated, and then went on to become a high priestess of a legitimate Gardnerian/Alexanderian coven, which are the two covens considered valid. Of course, if you were actually in a legit line-aged coven, you’d have known about “THE book of shadows” which even I am aware of, and I am not even wiccan by any margin. If I know that, then you’d know not only about it, but what’s actually in it.

      The anti hex, black magic, etc, rant, including about how that gets people kicked out of wicca covens, tells me quite clearly that your own coven was not formed, nor hived off an actual lineaged one, nor were the other covens or groups claiming the title, who would act this way. Yes, there are tons of these kinds around that have raided the Wicca pantry, put the title Wicca on themselves, and apparently, you were high priestess of one of them.

  12. I find the original post self serving, attention grabbing garbage. Person is ill informed, ego inflated, and young in mind. My opinion is that person has sooooo much more to learn about everything from Wicca to how to properly express a valid point.

  13. I think the real problem is that there are fakers: fakers from Wicca as fakers from Traditional Witchcraft.
    Neo-wiccans are the fakers from wicca, and this is your problem.
    Our (I speak as a TradCraft practitioner) problem is people who speak about Traditional Witchcraft as something “hereditary” and the-same-thing-as-neowicca-but-without-rede.
    TW is a reconstructional path. A reconstructional. Because the same idea of Witchcraft as something hereditary is discredited in accademical community. It’s a Murrayte idea (the “witch-cult theory” of witchcraft), while TradCraft is based on the “shamanistic theory” of witchcraft. Henningsen, who studied sicilian witches, the “donne di fuori” (“women of/by outside”), describe witchcraft as a “dream cult”, Eva Pocs (an Hungarian historian) describes the journey to the other world as the real initiation in the Old Craft, in Ginzburg’s “Night Battles” the benandanti (friulian witches) have “the call” and go in the otherworld by the dream, in Isobel Gowdie’s confessions, as Emma Wilby report, the journeys were mutual dreams. So, it’s essentially a non-physical cult. As a non-physical cult, it wasn’t hereditary. According to Sabina Magliocco, someone could have emulated the beliefs about witches in real physical sabbaths, but it wasn’t an interrupted line, it was an emulation.
    So we had: (90%) belief -> (8%) dream/trance -> (2%) emulation
    And physical rites weren’t just a copy of wiccan rites, there are descriptions of the offerings for the “dominae nocturnae” (the witch goddesses), and they are in no way related to the classic wiccan ritual. If you see a “””””tradwitch””””” casting a circle and calling the elements (a ‘800 tecnique), this is in no way “traditional”, it’s just a copy of the wiccan ritual.
    Ginzburg says that most of the meetings for the sabbath were in thursday of the Ember Days, so why so much “”””tradwitches”””” take the wiccan wheel of the year?
    Why people calling themselves “tradwitches” worship “”the horned god and the goddess”” while this is a wiccan creation? Why not the Queen of Elphame as the witches from the british trials did? Why are they duotheistic, isn’t it a wiccan idea?
    REAL tradcraft exists, see for example “A Deed without a Name” by Lee Morgan, and it’s reconstructionism, it’s not an hereditary tradition came out by I-don’t-know-where, it’s to take, to read historians and anthropologists such as Ginzburg, Pocs, Klaniczay, Pizza, Wilby, etc. and follow the descriptions reported by them of rituals, meetings, spirits, etc.
    So the problem is not tradcraft nor wicca, the problem is that both are full of fakers 😦

  14. Its not that there is or isn’t a rule of three a harvers of what you have planted is mentioned even on the bible, is more of a don’t do unto others what you are complaining about, apparently this person was trying to call the rule of three against whom wrote this note, its silly is a : oh no! Be nice to me and don’t disagree with me or I will set the rule of three on you! Kindergarten stuff, on my poor opinion

  15. I have read the ‘shove your threefold’ post. I must say that I found both that & your reply very interesting.
    As a Solitary (witch with big interest in Wicca) I love reading other peoples views, especially when they believe absolutely that they are right & the other person is wrong.
    Personally, I take all views with a pinch of salt & enjoy making my own mind up. Understanding that everyone will ALWAYS have a different idea of what it is they & others practice.
    Betina 🌹

  16. Reading many of these comments (while skimming over the rest, there appears to me to be a very strong undercurrent of authoritarian supremacy with regard to which branch, twig, or brand of The Craft (as I chose to refer to my path) is the most authentic, correct, and accurately practiced.

    To me this comes across as sophomoric at best. It smacks of the prevailing attitudes and sentiment so prevalent during the Christian Protestant Reformation. I think whom started what when, and what – if anything – one wears during a rite far less important than the dedication, sincerity, and intentions of the celebrant.

    Of course, many will disagree – some vociferously and vehemently. That’s fine. I am merely here to add my voice to an otherwise engaging discussion.

    Bright Blessings )O(

  17. As for the article in question “Shove your three fold” While I think the author there does have a point, and makes some good ones, I really dislike how she fails to emphasize that she is referring to all these self made wiccans, non lineaged ones are the ones acting this way; not the lineaged ones. Of course that may have been due to her own ignorance, and did not realize the this. Apparently, she was approached by some line aged ones who pointed this out, and in a follow up blog about it, she then scolds line aged ones, accusing them of being silent on the issue, and not taking any corrective measures. My thoughts are, she is either not mingling in too many circles, or she isn’t paying attention, because I see line aged Wiccans annoyed and getting loud about this very same issue all the time. They are as loud as anyone else about this, and likely far more frustrated due to the fact that it’s their pantry that got raided. Not only do they have to see all these people misappropriating things like three fold, but they also have deal with all these people claiming a title for themselves they did not earn by going through the proper training and initiation. There’s so many that trying to cull it all would be like being in a swimming pool trying to keep 10 balloons under water at the same time.

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